Josephine Quinn's Conversation about "The West"

This conversation between Aaron Bastani and historian Josephine Quinn delves into the central themes of Quinn's book, "How the World Made the West," primarily challenging the traditional view of Western Civilization as a distinct, self-made entity originating in ancient Greece.

The Myth of a Self-Made West: Quinn argues against the idea that Western Civilization developed in isolation, passing a "baton" from ancient Greece to Rome, through the Middle Ages and Christendom, to the present day. She contends that this view is a myth and that European and Western Civilization have always been subject to significant influences from elsewhere. Her book explores 3,500 years of history, starting with the earliest known civilizations up to the 16th century, to demonstrate the interconnected and entangled nature of history.

The Invention of "Civilization": The concept of "civilization" as a singular entity representing the highest form of human flourishing is a relatively recent invention, emerging in the 18th century. The idea of plural "civilizations" is even newer, becoming common in the 19th century. Quinn argues that this framework, while now standard, obscures a more complex and interconnected historical reality. She draws a parallel between the now debunked idea of distinct races and the persistent notion of isolated civilizations, suggesting that cultural boundaries are far more fluid than this model allows.

The Role of Historical Analogies: The conversation touches upon the use of historical analogies, such as the Punic Wars or World War II, in political discourse. Quinn suggests that these analogies are often chosen for their contemporary usefulness rather than their strict historical accuracy. She proposes that the Roman-Cenan conflicts might offer more relevant insights into a multi-polar world than the more frequently cited Punic Wars.

The Genesis of Europe and the West: Quinn discusses the evolution of the idea of Europe and its relationship to the concept of "the West." The notion of a distinct "West" as a civilizational entity only really took shape in the mid-19th century. Before that, even the idea of Europe as a singular civilization was not consistently held. Early thinkers like Guizot in the 1820s viewed European civilization as emerging from a diversity of past civilizations. Ancient Greek writers saw themselves as situated between Europe and Asia, noting environmental and character differences but not necessarily championing Europe. Importantly, Quinn argues that the ancient world lacked the modern concept of a morally or socially distinct "East" and "West".

Ancient Greek Identity: The conversation explores the fluid and complex nature of ancient Greek identity. Unlike Roman citizenship, "being Greek" was not a clear-cut political or ethnic designation but rather a more cultural and contextual affiliation. Origin myths varied, and the idea of a unified "Greek" people was not as prevalent as one might assume. The identity of Macedonians, including Alexander the Great, in relation to the broader Greek world was also a subject of debate.

The Late Bronze Age World: Quinn describes the interconnected world of the Late Bronze Age (around 1350 BC), characterized by a "Club of Great Kings" – major powers like Egypt, the Hittites, and the Babylonians who engaged in extensive diplomatic and economic exchange, using Akkadian as a shared language. This period highlights a form of globalization driven by the scarcity of resources like tin, essential for bronze production.

The Bronze Age Collapse: The discussion turns to the dramatic Bronze Age Collapse around 1200 BC, attributing it to a confluence of factors, including the interdependence of kingdoms, environmental issues, and potential local conflicts. Interestingly, Quinn raises the possibility that the loss of writing in Greece for about 400 years after the collapse might have been a social choice, a rejection of a technology potentially associated with oppressive centralized powers. The subsequent Iron Age saw a degree of deglobalization as iron, a more widely available resource, replaced bronze, lessening the need for long-distance trade networks.

The Value of Studying Ancient Languages: Quinn advocates for the teaching of Latin (and potentially Greek) in schools, not as a means of asserting European civilizational superiority, but as a way to train rational thinking, understand language structures, and encounter radically different worldviews. She believes that exposure to ancient literature can challenge modern assumptions about democracy and identity.

Julius Caesar's Legacy: The conversation addresses the brutal reality of Julius Caesar's conquests, particularly in Gaul, where he is said to have killed and enslaved millions. Quinn emphasizes the scale of his actions and suggests he was an exceptionally ruthless figure within the context of Roman leaders. The rise of powerful private armies under generals like Caesar during the late Roman Republic reflected a breakdown of state institutions, a situation with potential parallels to contemporary political crises. The possibility of the Roman Republic collapsing and the long-term viability of large empires are also briefly considered.

Learning from History: Quinn expresses skepticism about politicians learning from history, suggesting that historical narratives are often selectively used to support existing agendas. She highlights the importance of considering the failures and fragilities of past empires, like Rome, rather than just celebrating them as models of success.

Hollywood and Ancient Rome: The conversation concludes with a lighthearted discussion about the realism of Hollywood movies set in ancient Rome, with Quinn recommending the TV series "I, Claudius" for capturing the spirit of the Roman elite and surprisingly praising the movie "Troy" for its more satisfying narrative, even if not strictly accurate to the original myths.

In essence, the conversation centers on deconstructing the traditional, linear narrative of Western Civilization, emphasizing the constant interplay of cultures and influences throughout history. Quinn's work encourages a more nuanced and critical understanding of the past, urging a move away from essentialist ideas of civilizations and towards a recognition of the entangled and complex forces that have shaped the world.